Dash – Sechita on Fruits, Vegetables

January 11, 2011

The second significant toldah of Dash is sechita.  Its application to fruits and vegetables occupies an extensive sugya in the beginning of the twenty second chapter, from 143b until the next mishna, 145b.  Here is the sugya itself (link).  Our first challenge was to distinguish grapes and olives from all other food products.  Rashi talks about the squeezing of all other fruits as simply not a normal process, while the Ran makes a formal distinction between the status of olive oil and grape juice from all other absorbed liquids.  This debate leads to a very important debate as to whether something can enter into the category of “grapes and olives” because it become normal to squeeze then or if the formal rules limit the category to “halakhik liquids.”   Here are the mekorot for this part of the shiur (link).  We also addressed the famous position of the Hazon Ish (O”H 33:5) regarding the beracha on fruit juices.

In addition, there is the important question of establishing minhagim based on the practice of your community.  This issues has been obliterated in our contemporary reality in which nearly every fuit is squeezed for its juice.  The advent of juicing bars makes shifts nearly every fruit into the category of something that is regularly squeezed.  Here are the mekorot (link).  The practice of Menashe ben Menachem was to squeeze pomegranates so that impacted all of Klal Yisrael.  There are several important pieces in the Tosafot regarding the establishment of communal minhagim.

I will add the audio shiurim tonight or tomorrow.


Dash – Choleiv

January 2, 2011

One of the most practical toldot of Dash of choleiv (milking) – at least according to most rishonim.  Defining the exact parameters of the prohibition of milking is not simple.  We begin with a machloket tannaim as to whether or not this is a Torah prohibition at all.  According to the majority position of the chachamim milking is only a rabbinic prohibition.  R. Eliezer disagrees. (Shabbat 95a)

החולב והמחבץ והמגבן כגרוגרת, המכבד, והמרבץ, והרודה חלות דבש

.שגג בשבת – חייב חטאת, הזיד ביום טוב – לוקה ארבעים, דברי רבי אליעזר

.וחכמים אומרים: אחד זה ואחד זה אינו אלא משום שבות

It is an attempt to understand this berayta and to synthesize it with the limitation of dash to things that grown from the ground that generates the complexity of the sugya of choleiv.

After a complicated analysis we come to following positions:

Rashi, Tosafot and Rambam all hold that choleiv is a Torah prohibition.  Rashi and Rambam as a tolda of dash, Rabbeinu Tam as a Toldah of memachek.

Ramban, Rashba, Ritva, Ran, Nimukei Yosef all hold that it is only a rabbinic prohibition.  See here for the mekorot as well as material dealing with gidulei karka.

The mechaber appears to side with the Rambam that it is a Torah prohibtion but the Magen Avraham paskens like the Ramban.  There are a few achronim (see the Divrei Malkiel here) that want to at least use this shita as a leniency and the Emden assumes that choleiv is d’rabanan (see his teshuva here).

The Tzitz Eliezer in a brilliant essay outlines all the various shitot.  You can find his piece here with my emphases added (link).  In this masterful teshuva / article he lays out all of the issues at length and with great clarity.

In addition we addressed the question of choleiv when there is great pain or discomfort.  Here are the basic gemarot, and here you will see the key tosafot from around shas.

These issues are extremely important for religious kibbutzim and nursing mothers.  It is important to note an important language distinction that Hazal make.  Choleiv refers to the removal of milk from a cow and yonek refers to the removal of milk from a woman.  It is taken for granted that the same set of halakhot that apply to one will apply to the other.  I recognize the problematics of that fact.

The question that is often asked by nursing mothers who are expressing is how to do this on Shabbat.  This is not a simple issue as it may be a d’orayta issue.  If we take the mechaber as agreeing with the Rambam then there is no way to save the milk that is expressed.  Only by accepting the minority read of the Emden, Magen Avraham and Ramban can we permit a women to save the milk that is expressed on Shabbat.

This is only in a case where the baby no longer needs that milk.  That is to say that she is expressing to relieve her own discomfort but the baby has no real need for the milk.  If the baby needed the milk then it would be possible to even permit the d’orayta for the sake of the baby.

Here are the four shiurim that I gave on this topics:

Choleiv – setting out gemarot and rishonim

Choleiv b’makom tzaar

Choleiv l’maaseh – Yaavetz Divrei Malkiel – Process of Psak

Tzitz Eliezer on Choleiv



Dash – Introduction

January 1, 2011

In this shiur we dealt with some of the basic definitional questions as to what the melacha of Dash actually means.  We began with an analysis of the opening berayta on the topic as it appears on Shabbat 73b:

תנא: הדש והמנפץ והמנפט – כולן מלאכה אחת הן

We dealt with a basic machloket between Rashi and Tosafot on how to read this line.  The Eglei Tal in his opening  piece on milechet dash analyzes this debate.

We then moved on to the approach of R. Chananel and the Sefer ha-Ittim and what they add to the definition of the melacha.  They both seem to assume that dash is somehow preparatory for borer.  In addition the Sefer ha-Ittim adds that the item has receive the title “food” upon completion.

We then embarked on a brief analysis of the:

זומר וצריך לעצים

And its importance for the creation of the category of melachot which when done for some unusual purpose it is simply no longer the melacha.  Tosafot there adds dash to the list:

תוספות מסכת שבת דף עג עמוד ב, “וצריך לעצים”

נראה דאפילו לר’ יהודה דמחייב מלאכה שאינה צריכה לגופה בעינן צריך לעצים

.דלא מיקרי בעצים קוצר אלא בענין זה

.מידי דהוה אקורע על מנת לתפור ומוחק על מנת לכתוב

(וכדאמר רבי יוחנן לקמן בפ’ חבית. (דף קמה

אחד כבשים ואחד שלקות שסחטן לגופן מותר למימיהן חייב חטאת

?ואמאי שרי לגופן ליהוי כמלאכה שאינה צריכה לגופה

.אלא טעמא לפי שאין דרך דישה בכך

This Tosafot plays an important role for many melachot.

We then went on to discuss the definition of the term מפרק and how that impacts the melacha of dash.  We saw a basic debate between Rashi and the Ran as to what the actual case of throwing the clods of dirt was and how that impacted our understanding of the melacha.

Here are the mekorot that we studied (link).

Here is the audio file of the shiur:

Dash – Introduction and Definition